{"id":16944,"date":"2022-06-08T07:29:32","date_gmt":"2022-06-08T05:29:32","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.luxor.cz\/blog\/?p=16944"},"modified":"2023-02-01T14:07:57","modified_gmt":"2023-02-01T13:07:57","slug":"lide-kteri-ctou-umeji-myslet","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.luxor.cz\/blog\/rozhovor\/lide-kteri-ctou-umeji-myslet\/","title":{"rendered":"Lid\u00e9, kte\u0159\u00ed \u010dtou, um\u011bj\u00ed myslet"},"content":{"rendered":"

Kdy\u017e v\u00e1s ve sv\u00e9m vinohradsk\u00e9m byt\u011b p\u0159iv\u00edt\u00e1 sv\u011b\u017e\u00ed a energick\u00e1 d\u00e1ma, p\u0159ekvapen\u011b se smi\u0159ujete s t\u00edm, \u017ee za p\u00e1r t\u00fddn\u016f oslav\u00ed devades\u00e1t\u00e9 t\u0159et\u00ed narozeniny. Strhne v\u00e1s, s jak\u00fdm nadhledem p\u0159em\u00fd\u0161l\u00ed, s jakou ochotou vypr\u00e1v\u00ed, s jakou n\u011bhou vzpom\u00edn\u00e1 na sv\u00e9 bl\u00edzk\u00e9. N\u00e1\u0161 rozhovor se shodou okolnost\u00ed uskute\u010dnil na den p\u0159esn\u011b 73 let pot\u00e9, kdy Dita Krausov\u00e1 se sv\u00fdm man\u017eelem Otou p\u0159iplula do Izraele. Pohled na p\u0159\u00edstav v Haif\u011b si pr\u00fd pamatuje tak, jako by na palub\u011b lodi st\u00e1la v\u010dera.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Sama \u0159\u00edk\u00e1te, \u017ee m\u00e1te dva domovy \u2013 \u010cesko a Izrael. Co se ty dva domovy od sebe mohou nau\u010dit?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Ka\u017ed\u00fd n\u00e1rod m\u00e1 svou charakteristiku. O Izraelc\u00edch se \u0159\u00edk\u00e1, \u017ee jsou jako sabre, co\u017e je druh kaktusu, jeho\u017e plod se j\u00ed. Kaktus sice m\u00e1 zven\u010d\u00ed trny, ale plod uvnit\u0159 je sladk\u00fd. Oni jsou dost nevychovan\u00ed a nezdvo\u0159il\u00ed, ale jakmile v\u00e1s uvid\u00ed, \u017ee trp\u00edte nebo jste t\u0159eba upadl, tak p\u0159ib\u011bhnou a budou o v\u00e1s pe\u010dovat i tehdy, kdy u\u017e budete zdrav\u00fd. Maj\u00ed soun\u00e1le\u017eitost, tu v \u010cesku moc nevid\u00edm. Dost lid\u00ed z\u00e1vid\u00ed jeden druh\u00e9mu a jsou nep\u0159ej\u00edc\u00ed. To je lidsk\u00e1 vlastnost v\u0161ude, ale tady je n\u011bjak siln\u011bj\u0161\u00ed. Ale oba n\u00e1rody maj\u00ed tak\u00e9 mnoho spole\u010dn\u00e9ho, t\u0159eba to, \u017ee jsou vzd\u011blan\u00e9. Oce\u0148uji t\u0159eba \u010desk\u00e9 l\u00e9ka\u0159e, kte\u0159\u00ed jsou na \u00fa\u017easn\u00e9 \u00farovni. Podobn\u011b tak\u00e9 politi\u010dt\u00ed analytici, moc r\u00e1da je poslouch\u00e1m.<\/p>\n

Va\u0161\u00edm \u017eivotem se nechal inspirovat \u0161pan\u011blsk\u00fd spisovatel Antonio Iturbe v rom\u00e1nu Osv\u011btimsk\u00e1 knihovnice<\/a>. V \u010dem se li\u0161\u00ed v\u00e1\u0161 a jej\u00ed p\u0159\u00edb\u011bh?<\/strong><\/p>\n

On m\u011b idealizuje, vid\u00ed ve mn\u011b hrdinskou osobu. J\u00e1 se ale nec\u00edt\u00edm jako hrdinka. Ona je jin\u00e1, neboj\u00e1cn\u00e1, \u010del\u00ed Mengelemu. Ve skute\u010dnosti to ale tak \u00fapln\u011b nebylo.<\/p>\n

Jak vlastn\u011b Antonio Iturbe na v\u00e1\u0161 p\u0159\u00edb\u011bh narazil?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tvrd\u00ed, \u017ee n\u011bkde na\u0161el zm\u00ednku o knih\u00e1ch v Osv\u011btimi, a to ho zaujalo. Jak mohly b\u00fdt v Osv\u011btimi knihy? P\u00e1tral po tom tak dlouho, a\u017e napsal do centra Beit Terez\u00edn (pozn. red.: Muzeum a pam\u00e1tn\u00edk ur\u010den\u00fd ob\u011btem terez\u00ednsk\u00e9ho ghetta), kter\u00fd se nach\u00e1z\u00ed v jednom izraelsk\u00e9m kibucu. Maj\u00ed tam kartot\u00e9ku, shroma\u017e\u010fuj\u00ed historick\u00e1 fakta, d\u011blaj\u00ed v\u00fdstavy a p\u0159edn\u00e1\u0161ky. Lid\u00e9 se tam jezd\u00ed u\u010dit o Terez\u00edn\u011b. Kdy\u017e tam Antonio napsal, odpov\u011bd\u011bli mu, \u017ee dokonce znaj\u00ed i knihovnici. Mn\u011b napsali, \u017ee m\u011b hled\u00e1 n\u011bjak\u00fd \u0161pan\u011blsk\u00fd autor, abych mu odpov\u011bd\u011bla, a tak jsme za\u010dali korespondovat. Byl moc sympatick\u00fd, stra\u0161n\u011b zdvo\u0159il\u00fd a st\u00e1le se za ka\u017edou ot\u00e1zku omlouval. Sp\u0159\u00e1telili jsme se a dodnes si p\u00ed\u0161eme.<\/p>\n

\u201eKnihy jsou velmi nebezpe\u010dn\u00e9, nut\u00ed p\u0159em\u00fd\u0161let,\u201c p\u00ed\u0161e Antonio Iturbe v p\u0159edmluv\u011b ke sv\u00e9 knize Osv\u011btimsk\u00e1 knihovnice. Souhlas\u00edte s n\u00edm?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Ur\u010dit\u011b na tom n\u011bco je. Lid\u00e9 se v knih\u00e1ch dozv\u00eddaj\u00ed v\u011bci, kter\u00e9 politici nemaj\u00ed r\u00e1di. Lid\u00e9, kte\u0159\u00ed \u010dtou, jsou vzd\u011blan\u00ed. A vzd\u011blan\u00ed lid\u00e9 jsou nebezpe\u010dn\u00ed pro prezidenty a dikt\u00e1tory, jednodu\u0161e proto, \u017ee um\u011bj\u00ed myslet.<\/p>\n

Napad\u00e1 v\u00e1s n\u011bjak\u00fd autor, o kter\u00e9m si mysl\u00edte, \u017ee je v \u010cesku p\u0159ehl\u00ed\u017een\u00fd?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"\"M\u016fj man\u017eel! (sm\u00edch) Byl spisovatel a vydal n\u011bkolik knih. N\u011bkter\u00e9 byly p\u0159elo\u017eeny i do osmi jazyk\u016f. V \u010cesku mu jako posledn\u00ed vy\u0161la v Akropolisu kniha Cesta pou\u0161t\u00ed<\/a><\/strong>. Bohu\u017eel se nedo\u017eil jej\u00edho vyd\u00e1n\u00ed, ale pova\u017eoval ji \u2013 a j\u00e1 tak\u00e9 \u2013 za svou nejlep\u0161\u00ed. Tady se o n\u011bm p\u0159\u00edli\u0161 nemluvilo, ale u\u017e se to m\u011bn\u00ed a do\u010dkal se uzn\u00e1n\u00ed.<\/p>\n

Pr\u00e1v\u011b vych\u00e1z\u00ed kniha o va\u0161em man\u017eelovi \u017divot s Otou<\/a>. Co v\u00e1s vedlo k tomu napsat tuto knihu?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Po Otov\u011b smrti mi z\u016fstaly v \u0161upl\u00edku le\u017eet t\u0159i rukopisy. Sna\u017eila jsem se je vydat a p\u0159i t\u00e9 p\u0159\u00edle\u017eitosti se m\u011b nakladatel Akropolisu zeptal, jestli jsem taky n\u011bkdy n\u011bco napsala. P\u0159iznala jsem, \u017ee m\u00e1m asi p\u011bt \u0161est drobn\u00fdch \u010dl\u00e1nk\u016f, kter\u00e9 jsem psala, kdy\u017e jsem si vzpomn\u011bla na n\u011bjakou ud\u00e1lost. Kdy\u017e jsem mu je uk\u00e1zala, \u0159ekl mi, \u017ee by z toho byla dobr\u00e1 kn\u00ed\u017eka. Ve stejn\u00e9 dob\u011b jsem se setkala se z\u00e1zra\u010dn\u011b talentovanou redaktorkou a spole\u010dn\u00fdmi silami vznikla m\u00e1 prvn\u00ed kniha Odlo\u017een\u00fd \u017eivot<\/strong><\/a>, kterou vydalo nakladatelstv\u00ed Euromedia. A kdy\u017e byla kniha \u00fasp\u011b\u0161n\u00e1, tak mi redaktorka navrhla: A co napsat o Otovi? Tak jsem si sedla a napsala jsem \u00fatr\u017eky vzpom\u00ednek, kter\u00e9 dopl\u0148uj\u00ed dobov\u00e9 fotografie a v\u00fd\u0148atky z Otov\u00fdch rom\u00e1n\u016f, pov\u00eddek a prac\u00ed, kter\u00e9 dosud nikdy nevy\u0161ly.<\/p>\n

N\u011bkolik let po sv\u00e9m p\u0159\u00edchodu do Izraele jste s man\u017eelem str\u00e1vili v kibucu. Jak se tam \u017eilo?<\/strong><\/p>\n

V kibucu se \u017eilo komun\u00e1ln\u011b. V\u0161echno pat\u0159ilo v\u0161em a o v\u0161em se spole\u010dn\u011b rozhodovalo. Ka\u017ed\u00fd t\u00fdden bylo shrom\u00e1\u017ed\u011bn\u00ed, kde se hlasovalo t\u0159eba o tom, zda se koup\u00ed nov\u00fd traktor nebo t\u0159eba \u017ee pokladn\u00edk u\u017e pracuje p\u0159\u00edli\u0161 dlouho a kdo ho nahrad\u00ed. \u010clov\u011bk tam nem\u011bl ani vlastn\u00ed pen\u00edze. Existovaly velk\u00e9 kibucy, kde bylo i tis\u00edc lid\u00ed, a naopak byly i \u00fapln\u011b mal\u00e9, kde jich bylo 300. Ten n\u00e1\u0161 byl n\u011bkde uprost\u0159ed. Alespo\u0148 tenkr\u00e1t v pades\u00e1t\u00fdch letech to tak bylo, te\u010f u\u017e se to hodn\u011b zm\u011bnilo.<\/p>\n

Vybavujete si, jak byl v Izraeli vn\u00edman\u00fd soud s Adolfem Eichmannem v roce 1961?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Izrael\u0161t\u00ed ob\u010dan\u00e9 se d\u00edky n\u011bmu za\u010dali d\u00edvat na p\u0159e\u017eiv\u0161\u00ed holocaustu jinak. Proces prob\u00edhal n\u011bkolik t\u00fddn\u016f, kdy\u017e u\u017e jsme byli usazen\u00ed a um\u011bli hebrejsky. Televize tehdy je\u0161t\u011b nebyla, ale proces \u017eiv\u011b vys\u00edlalo r\u00e1dio. Lid\u00e9 sed\u011bli spole\u010dn\u011b u p\u0159ij\u00edma\u010d\u016f a poslouchali v\u00fdpov\u011bdi sv\u011bdk\u016f. Mysl\u00edm, \u017ee teprve tehdy izrael\u0161t\u00ed ob\u010dan\u00e9 pochopili, co to vlastn\u011b holocaust byl, a p\u0159estali se na n\u00e1s koukat jako na slabochy, kte\u0159\u00ed se nebr\u00e1nili. Pochopili, \u017ee br\u00e1nit se nebylo mo\u017en\u00e9.<\/p>\n

Jak\u00e1 kniha v\u00e1s v \u017eivot\u011b nejv\u00edc ovlivnila?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Siln\u011b m\u011b ovlivnila jedna v\u011bta z knihy Chal\u00edla D\u017eibr\u00e1na, \u017ee d\u011bti nepat\u0159\u00ed rodi\u010d\u016fm, n\u00fdbr\u017e rodi\u010de jsou jenom luk, kter\u00fd d\u011bti jako \u0161\u00edp pos\u00edl\u00e1 do sv\u011bta. My\u0161lenka se mi zal\u00edbila a mysl\u00edm, \u017ee i d\u00edky n\u00ed jsem svoje d\u011bti nikdy nepova\u017eovala za sv\u016fj majetek, ale za samostatn\u00e9 tvory, kter\u00e9 \u010dlov\u011bk mus\u00ed poslat d\u00e1l. Hodn\u011b m\u011b ovlivnil tak\u00e9 Patrick White. P\u0159esto\u017ee dostal v roce 1973 Nobelovu cenu, nikdy nebyl p\u0159\u00edli\u0161 slavn\u00fd. U\u017e ne\u017eije a trochu se na n\u011bj zapomn\u011blo, p\u0159itom je to \u00fa\u017easn\u00fd autor. Psal rom\u00e1ny, kter\u00e9 m\u011bly n\u011bkolik vrstev. Ur\u010dit\u011b nedostal tu cenu nadarmo.<\/p>\n

\"\"DITA KRAUSOV\u00c1,<\/strong><\/a> rozen\u00e1 Edith Polachov\u00e1, se narodila v roce 1929 v asimilovan\u00e9 \u017eidovsk\u00e9 rodin\u011b v Praze. V roce 1942 byla deportov\u00e1na nejd\u0159\u00edve do Terez\u00edna a n\u00e1sledn\u011b do Osv\u011btimi, kde se starala o kn\u00ed\u017eky, kter\u00e9 dosp\u011bl\u00ed pou\u017e\u00edvali k tajn\u00e9 v\u00fduce d\u011bt\u00ed. (Jedn\u00edm z u\u010ditel\u016f byl i Ota B. Kraus.) Setkala se tv\u00e1\u0159\u00ed v tv\u00e1\u0159 s Josefem Mengelem, kter\u00e9mu \u0159ekla, \u017ee je mal\u00ed\u0159ka portr\u00e9t\u016f. P\u0159ed koncem v\u00e1lky pro\u0161la n\u011bkolika dal\u0161\u00edmi koncentra\u010dn\u00edmi t\u00e1bory. Po p\u00e1du t\u0159et\u00ed \u0159\u00ed\u0161e se vr\u00e1tila do Prahy, kde se v roce 1947 vdala za Otu B. Krause, s n\u00edm\u017e po narozen\u00ed prvn\u00edho syna odjela do Izraele. Do Prahy se vr\u00e1tila roku 1989, od t\u00e9 doby \u017eije st\u0159\u00eddav\u011b v Praze a Izraeli.<\/p>\n

Autorem \u010dl\u00e1nku je \u0160imon K\u00f6ppl.<\/em><\/p>\n

Tento \u010dl\u00e1nek vy\u0161el v magaz\u00ednu Luxor v \u010dervnu 2022.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Kdy\u017e v\u00e1s ve sv\u00e9m vinohradsk\u00e9m byt\u011b p\u0159iv\u00edt\u00e1 sv\u011b\u017e\u00ed a energick\u00e1 d\u00e1ma, p\u0159ekvapen\u011b se smi\u0159ujete s t\u00edm, \u017ee za p\u00e1r t\u00fddn\u016f oslav\u00ed devades\u00e1t\u00e9 t\u0159et\u00ed narozeniny. Strhne v\u00e1s, s jak\u00fdm nadhledem p\u0159em\u00fd\u0161l\u00ed, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":16950,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"_EventAllDay":false,"_EventTimezone":"","_EventStartDate":"","_EventEndDate":"","_EventStartDateUTC":"","_EventEndDateUTC":"","_EventShowMap":false,"_EventShowMapLink":false,"_EventURL":"","_EventCost":"","_EventCostDescription":"","_EventCurrencySymbol":"","_EventCurrencyCode":"","_EventCurrencyPosition":"","_EventDateTimeSeparator":"","_EventTimeRangeSeparator":"","_EventOrganizerID":[],"_EventVenueID":[],"_OrganizerEmail":"","_OrganizerPhone":"","_OrganizerWebsite":"","_VenueAddress":"","_VenueCity":"","_VenueCountry":"","_VenueProvince":"","_VenueState":"","_VenueZip":"","_VenuePhone":"","_VenueURL":"","_VenueStateProvince":"","_VenueLat":"","_VenueLng":"","_VenueShowMap":false,"_VenueShowMapLink":false,"twitterCardType":"","cardImageID":0,"cardImage":"","cardTitle":"","cardDesc":"","cardImageAlt":"","cardPlayer":"","cardPlayerWidth":0,"cardPlayerHeight":0,"cardPlayerStream":"","cardPlayerCodec":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[8,21655],"tags":[20787,18344],"class_list":["post-16944","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-rozhovor","category-magazin-luxor","tag-ceska-literatura","tag-rozhovor"],"acf":{"related_products":null},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.luxor.cz\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/16944","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.luxor.cz\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.luxor.cz\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.luxor.cz\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.luxor.cz\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=16944"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.luxor.cz\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/16944\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.luxor.cz\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/16950"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.luxor.cz\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=16944"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.luxor.cz\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=16944"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.luxor.cz\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=16944"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}